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zeek

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Jul 21 13 6:41 AM

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Since Clay and Rush Limbaugh seem to be worried sick about the problem of black on black violence (especially in Chicago), I thought I'd start this thread. 

Mind you, I've never subscribed to racist theories that black people are inherently less civilized or more pugilistic than white people.  I think violence in a particular ethnic community is generally tied to economics.  Regardless of race or ethnicity, if people are stuck in a rut of poverty and hopelessness, they're more likely to resort to crime and violence to survive.  That's certainly true in my second favorite country (France), and it's true here in the U.S. as well. 

So what measures do we take to stop violence?  First, violent neighborhoods need a strong law enforcement presence.  People need job opportunities, and decent schools so they can work to qualify for those jobs.  They don't need part time, dead end minimum wage jobs that will keep them mired in poverty and dependence----they need jobs that will pay a living wage.  They need health care, so problems like mental illness, ADHD, diabetes, hypertension and so on can be promptly and effectively treated.  They need better access to healthy foods, rather than just cheap liquor and lottery tickets.  They need affordable child care.  They need after school programs, to keep their kids off the street while parents work.  And they need good, sober role models for their children. 

You'll notice that the Republicans have been doing their best to chip away at, or eliminate, all of these things.  Other than that, their sole effort to address the problem of black on black crime seems to be bitching at Obama for bringing up issues that make them uncomfortable (for example, the death of Trayvon Martin and the fact that his killer is a free man today) and demanding that he obey THEIR demands, and talk about this issue instead.

So I'm waiting for you right wingers, especially the ones who dutifully listen to Rush and have been parroting his "But what about black on black violence?" attempts at deflection here.  What can YOU do about black on black violence, other than bitch?  What ARE you doing?

If you can't come up with any answers that don't start out with "But but but but OBAMA should----" then you're just using the black community's problems to attack the president, and should probably shut your collective piehole.

Waiting for your proposed solutions......


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clay1g

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#1 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:11 AM

The problems with black on black violence are related to the issue you also don't want to discuss ole gal, and that is the break down of the black family.

You can propose all the government solutions (shocker that that's all you can think of) you want but the fact is, the government can't make people become responsible (which means less unprotected sex with people they have no intention of marrying).

What the government CAN do is begin making this a focus of attention for the country to encourage people to be more responsible. And being responsible means being responsible when you decide to have sex with someone.  And if you do get someone pregnant, don't just walk away like so many do nowadays, but be involved in your kid's lives. Don't leave it up to the mother and the government to raise the child.

The issues of out-of-wedlock births and black-on-black crime are just symptoms of a larger problem -- the break down of the family. THAT'S where it all starts.

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zeek

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Jul 21 13 7:23 AM

The problems with black on black violence are related to the issue you also don't want to discuss ole gal, and that is the break down of the black family.
You can propose all the government solutions (shocker that that's all you can think of) you want but the fact is, the government can't make people become responsible (which means less unprotected sex with people they have no intention of marrying).
What the government CAN do is begin making this a focus of attention for the country to encourage people to be more responsible. And being responsible means being responsible when you decide to have sex with someone.  And if you do get someone pregnant, don't just walk away like so many do nowadays, but be involved in your kid's lives. Don't leave it up to the mother and the government to raise the child.
The issues of out-of-wedlock births and black-on-black crime are just symptoms of a larger problem -- the break down of the family. THAT'S where it all starts.

-clay1g


Now, how did I KNOW that you'd wimp out and parrot the same tired old we-need-to-scold-black-Americans-into-shaping-up mantra, instead of coming up with real solutions?

Obama is already doing more than you are, by being an excellent family role model.  Not just for black Americans, but for Americans of ANY race, because, as we all know, there are also a great many white men---and women---who walk away from their parental responsibilities. 

Pep talks alone aren't going to do it, my boy.  We've already tried that.  And, no, it's not just about "the breakdown of the family."  If it were, then you wouldn't be singling out black Americans as you're doing.  You'd also realize that it's not just an American thing.  In fact, many countries are seeing much higher percentages of unmarried parents than they saw 30 or 40 years ago. 

Let me remind you, too, that many American families broke down a century ago, when diseases like diphtheria and tuberculosis and typhoid carried off many parents (and children, too!) at a young age.  Yet it didn't necessarily result in community violence.  Nor is violence epidemic in countries like France, the Netherlands and Sweden, which also have high percentages of "out of wedlock" births.  What's the difference?  POVERTY.  Especially poverty combined with lack of opportunity. 

Tell me what you're going to do about it, other than sitting on your butt demanding that Obama scold the black community. 


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#3 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:31 AM

its a socio-economic thing at its heart. The cold bastards on this board say "if you cant find a job, MOVE".
 
My last move cost me about $5000 before the process was complete, took more than a month and I required the help of a lot of people, not to mention a LOT of time. When you work 3 jobs to make ends meet because there are no employers that offer full time work and you have kids and you're barely existing off pay check to pay check and republicans want to make it harder by shaming you for being poor and needing assistance - then take that assistance away leaving you and your kids hungry and in poor health....how could ANYONE improve their situation???  It's hard to care about the community when your kids are starving and when joining a gang is the only way to get *some* measure of protection because law enforcement wont do its job....well it's easy to blame the people without the special interest group, right?

It's not that I think all republicans are racist...it's just that every racist I've ever met is republican....

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#4 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:41 AM

 

The problems with black on black violence are related to the issue you also don't want to discuss ole gal, and that is the break down of the black family.

You can propose all the government solutions (shocker that that's all you can think of) you want but the fact is, the government can't make people become responsible (which means less unprotected sex with people they have no intention of marrying)....

-clay1g

That's where you're wrong.  Yes, the government CAN help people be responsible about sex.

But that means that you, as a righty, if you actually intend to help with this issue, have to prevail on your fellow righties, particularly those in state legislatures and in Congress, to stop making it so difficult for low-income women  --  and men, too  --  to access reproductive health services, including contraceptive products.

Your congressional and legislative righties spend much their time making certain that it's as difficult as they can possibly make it for couples to practice safer sex, by cutting Medicaid funds, defunding Planned Parenthood, and taking away unemployment compensation and reducing need-based government assistance, so low-income people have less money to spend on contraceptive products.

Also, your fellow righties refuse to support comprehensive sex education, but do support failed programs such as abstinence-only.

And you approve of medical professionals withholding birth control information and refusing to write and fill prescriptions for contraception.

That's a pretty shoddy record, for people who claim to be concerned about the issue.

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clay1g

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#5 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:44 AM

Now, how did I KNOW that you'd wimp out and parrot the same tired old we-need-to-scold-black-Americans-into-shaping-up mantra, instead of coming up with real solutions?
Obama is already doing more than you are, by being an excellent family role model.  Not just for black Americans, but for Americans of ANY race, because, as we all know, there are also a great many white men---and women---who walk away from their parental responsibilities. 
Pep talks alone aren't going to do it, my boy.  We've already tried that.  And, no, it's not just about "the breakdown of the family."  If it were, then you wouldn't be singling out black Americans as you're doing.  You'd also realize that it's not just an American thing.  In fact, many countries are seeing much higher percentages of unmarried parents than they saw 30 or 40 years ago. 
Let me remind you, too, that many American families broke down a century ago, when diseases like diphtheria and tuberculosis and typhoid carried off many parents (and children, too!) at a young age.  Yet it didn't necessarily result in community violence.  Nor is violence epidemic in countries like France, the Netherlands and Sweden, which also have high percentages of "out of wedlock" births.  What's the difference?  POVERTY.  Especially poverty combined with lack of opportunity. 
Tell me what you're going to do about it, other than sitting on your butt demanding that Obama scold the black community. 

-zeek

You can't fix a problem until you first identify it. Critical Thinking 101. And the problem is what I mentioned -- the breakdown of the black family. What a shocker that you want to stay as far away from that discussion as possible?

And what I was talking about was more than just a "pep talk."

You mention poverty and yet you're too stupid to see that the CAUSE of a lot of that poverty is what I have already brought up -- out-of-wedlock births.

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clay1g

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#6 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:45 AM

its a socio-economic thing at its heart. The cold bastards on this board say "if you cant find a job, MOVE".
 
My last move cost me about $5000 before the process was complete, took more than a month and I required the help of a lot of people, not to mention a LOT of time. When you work 3 jobs to make ends meet because there are no employers that offer full time work and you have kids and you're barely existing off pay check to pay check and republicans want to make it harder by shaming you for being poor and needing assistance - then take that assistance away leaving you and your kids hungry and in poor health....how could ANYONE improve their situation???  It's hard to care about the community when your kids are starving and when joining a gang is the only way to get *some* measure of protection because law enforcement wont do its job....well it's easy to blame the people without the special interest group, right?

-margueritekrex



Perhaps that gang wouldn't look so tempting if the father of that child had decided to try to be a major part of his life?

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#8 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:49 AM

... You mention poverty and yet you're too stupid to see that the CAUSE of a lot of that poverty is what I have already brought up -- out-of-wedlock births.

-clay1g

It would matter much less whether or not women were single parents were women paid the same as men doing comparable work.

So long as women only make about 75% of what men make, they're going to be in greater economic peril.

And that doesn't even get into the issue of many of the types of work that attract women are jobs for which the pay is low and too many employers refuse to offer full-time hours.

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#9 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:53 AM

its a socio-economic thing at its heart. The cold bastards on this board say "if you cant find a job, MOVE".  My last move cost me about $5000 before the process was complete, took more than a month and I required the help of a lot of people, not to mention a LOT of time. When you work 3 jobs to make ends meet because there are no employers that offer full time work and you have kids and you're barely existing off pay check to pay check and republicans want to make it harder by shaming you for being poor and needing assistance - then take that assistance away leaving you and your kids hungry and in poor health....how could ANYONE improve their situation???  It's hard to care about the community when your kids are starving and when joining a gang is the only way to get *some* measure of protection because law enforcement wont do its job....well it's easy to blame the people without the special interest group, right?

-margueritekrex

>>>>>>>>>>>

My own state and the city I live in provides me with a good job but as far as living there it's not so hot.A large percentage of my co-workers travel at least an hour or more to their jobs but the poor are hamstrung since a minimum wage job denies them the opportunity to move elsewhere. Top employers usually give their employees moving expense reimbursement but the  fast food industry has no need to pay that type of expense since there's a ready supply of poverty stricken beating on their door.  

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clay1g

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#10 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:54 AM

So taking away birth control is going to help out-of-wedlock births? That's really asinine don't you think?

-sweetiegirl

Who said anything about taking away birth control pills? I think it's asinine to attack a point no one made.

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clay1g

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#11 [url]

Jul 21 13 7:55 AM


It would matter much less whether or not women were single parents were women paid the same as men doing comparable work.
So long as women only make about 75% of what men make, they're going to be in greater economic peril.
And that doesn't even get into the issue of many of the types of work that attract women are jobs for which the pay is low and too many employers refuse to offer full-time hours.

-annecucherry

So the high rate of out-of-wedlock birth is due to the distorted 75% of what women make vs men?

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#12 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:00 AM

All those part time jobs that employers love don't pay very much and those jobs don't have healthcare. A poverty stricken woman is going to buy food for her kids before she can buy birth control pills.

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zeek

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#13 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:00 AM


You can't fix a problem until you first identify it. Critical Thinking 101. And the problem is what I mentioned -- the breakdown of the black family. What a shocker that you want to stay as far away from that discussion as possible?
.

-clay1g


Not at all, my boy.  But you DIDN'T identify the root cause or contributing factors of the problem.  You immediately jumped on a favorite right wing bandwagon----blame and shame-----instead of making any real attempts. 

And, by an amazing coincidence, the snap solution you're backing just happens to be the most comfortable one for YOU, because it involves absolutely no effort on the right's part. 

Keep going.  Again, the more you talk, the more obvious it becomes that you're not motivated to do anything but bitch.  Which, aside from prancing and dancing, seems to be the only thing you know how to do. 

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zeek

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#14 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:03 AM


So the high rate of out-of-wedlock birth is due to the distorted 75% of what women make vs men?

-clay1g


As I've pointed out to you numerous times, my boy, the "out of wedlock birth rate" is up throughout the western world, not just in American black communities. 

Please tell me why you think Obama's actions (or perceived lack of them) on this issue are causing more French and Dutch and Swedish couples to choose parenthood without marriage.

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zeek

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#15 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:04 AM


Who said anything about taking away birth control pills? I think it's asinine to attack a point no one made.

-clay1g

Stop prancing, my boy.  You know very well that, in past discussions, you've enthusiastically supported employers' "right" to withhold selected health care services from their employees' earned benefits. 

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#16 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:04 AM

Who said anything about taking away birth control pills? I think it's asinine to attack a point no one made.
'
 
 
 
If you don't know the attack on birth control isn't RAMPANT in today's political climate, you have your head buried somewhere...
 
Until you can acknowledge the reality - the right are doing EVERYTHING they can to hamstring the less fortunate - you can't have a serious conversation about this topic.

It's not that I think all republicans are racist...it's just that every racist I've ever met is republican....

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#17 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:05 AM

So the high rate of out-of-wedlock birth is due to the distorted 75% of what women make vs men?

-clay1g


Did I say that?  No, I did not.

I said that women make less than men doing comparable work and therefore women  --  whether single parents or not  --  would be less likely to be in poverty were there pay equity in this nation.


Of course, birth control products aren't cheap, so people who're having trouble making ends meet aren't likely to starve their families just to be able to purchase contraception.

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#18 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:06 AM

<snip>  Mind you, I've never subscribed to racist theories that black people are inherently less civilized or more pugilistic than white people.  I think violence in a particular ethnic community is generally tied to economics.  <much bigger snip>

-zeek

White on white crime is only trailing black on black crime by 15 or so points (which the right NEVER mentions).  Given that black unemployment is almost twice as high as the regular tally for unemployment, yeah I think you are on to something.

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zeek

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#19 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:12 AM


Perhaps that gang wouldn't look so tempting if the father of that child had decided to try to be a major part of his life?


-clay1g

Possibly not.  But, to solve a complex problem, we must work within the real world, not a "shoulda woulda coulda" alternate world of excuses for doing nothing.   And, in the real world, poor or ineffective coping strategies will be perpetuated within a family, unless they have the opportunity to interrupt that cycle with new, more functional behaviors.

It doesn't happen by osmosis, though.  It requires education, good role models and OPPORTUNITY.  Lecturing black Americans to behave more like white people (or some bigot's skewed perception of white competence and morality) isn't likely to win their confidence or interest. 


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#20 [url]

Jul 21 13 8:15 AM

The right like to use black society as their whipping boy in a thinly veiled racist assertion, but they REFUES to talk about things like the economic opportunity afforded (or not afforded) to those communities. They do everything they can to hamstring the poorest segment of society and then say shit like "blacks are doing this to blacks....whites don't act this way!" hoping people will follow the *natural* conclusion that black people are naturally more violent and inferior to whites.

They know exactly what they're doing and how to walk that line between blatant racist and shit eater. The difference is now, they're starting to get called on the carpet for it and then scream victim and that anyone who does so is "race baiting".

What the hell is race baiting??? You cant bait race. You can point out when someone is acting like a bigot though..

It's not that I think all republicans are racist...it's just that every racist I've ever met is republican....

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